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In this episode, I interview George Nickas, the outgoing executive director of Wilderness Watch. George discusses ending his 30-year tenure at Wilderness Watch as the group transitions to new executive leadership under Dana Johnson. George recounts Wilderness Watch’s origins in 1989 in response to illegal outfitter caches and proposed lodges in the River of No Return country, then describes early battles against helicopter landing zones and monitoring flights in Tongass wilderness and winning the Cumberland Island case (Wilderness Watch v. Mainella) banning motorized van tours. He highlights key litigation on wild rivers, Boundary Waters motor use, rebuilding structures, and the Buffalo Creek case opposing fish-poisoning/restocking as unlawful “trammeling.” George warns of agency budget cuts, policy rollbacks, recreation commercialization, chainsaw proposals, grazing impacts, and the decline of “big green” advocacy, arguing Wilderness needs vigilant enforcement and champions, and a new dedicated Wilderness agency overseeing these federal public lands.

www.wildernesswatch.org

01:17 Why Fight Wilderness Fires

02:26 Thirty Years In

03:25 How It Began

07:00 Early Battles

10:06 Cumberland Island Case

13:04 Courts And The Act

15:18 Key Legal Wins

17:21 Buffalo Creek Untrammeled

22:10 Why Watchdogs Matter

25:24 Programs Gutted

27:13 Need A Wilderness Agency

30:05 Logging Loopholes

36:41 Fire Hysteria Pushback

38:28 Recreation Impacts

39:49 Wildlife Displacement Costs

41:00 Recreation Industry Pressure

43:07 Exceptions Eroding Wilderness

45:14 Trails Chainsaws Enforcement

49:45 Policy Attacks Funding Loopholes

57:14 Big Greens Movement Critique

01:05:15 Career Reflections Future Fight

01:10:35 Public Lands Birthright

01:12:34 Retirement Staying Involved

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In this episode, I interview Tim Ingalsbee, co-founder and executive director of Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE). Tim and I discuss his critiques of the new U.S. Wildland Fire Service, arguing consolidation is framed as efficiency but functions as defunding, job shedding, and a suppression-first “Fire Force” detached from land stewardship, able to override local land managers. Tim says federal fire management is failing due to an obsolete full-suppression paradigm, reinforced by “attack all fires” directives, which wastes resources, increases hazards, and can worsen ecological damage. He advocates strategic suppression and an Alaska-style triage model, prioritizing protection of lives, communities, and infrastructure while living with fire for ecological benefit. Our conversation covers problems with thinning for timber, home ignitability and community-wide mitigation, workforce programs like the Oregon Conservation Corps, Indigenous fire stewardship, cultural change away from militarized firefighting, and FUSEE’s work promoting proactive fire management and policy reform.

Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE)

Oregon Conservation Corps

S. 3609 (The Community Protection and Wildfire Resilience Act)

H.R. 948 (The SAFE HOME Act)

03:26 New Wildland Fire Service

05:50 Consolidation Risks And Missions

10:18 Attack All Fires Directive

14:29 Strategic Suppression Triage

18:33 Smokey Bear Myths

22:35 Thinning/Prescribed Fire Debate

28:05 Home Ignition Zone Focus

32:47 Community Workforce Programs

35:46 Preparing Communities For Fire

38:03 Fireproofing Homes First

39:28 Oregon Conservation Corps Model

40:28 Indigenous Fire Stewardship

44:53 Living in the Pyrocene

47:04 Militarized Firefighting Culture

49:31 Toxic Tools and Home Hazmat

52:31 Firefighters as Stewards

55:23 Epiphanies on the Fireline

59:51 FUSEE Mission and Advocacy

01:01:08 Prescribed Burn Smoke Concerns

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In this episode, I speak with Defenders of Wildlife’s Kelly Cox and Christian Hunt about the Wildlife Corridors Act and why it’s needed to counter habitat fragmentation and improve wildlife movement across landscapes that don’t match jurisdictional boundaries. They explain the bill’s goal of creating a national wildlife corridors system focused primarily on federal lands, requiring agencies to coordinate through a corridor committee, use mapping and science to prioritize corridors, and adopt implementing regulations within a couple years of enactment. The act defines connectivity around movements that support genetic exchange, range shifting/expansion, seasonal movement, and recolonization after disturbances, with urgency heightened by climate-driven range shifts.

Beyer, Buchanan, Lofgren, and Fitzpatrick Introduce Bipartisan Legislation To Support Wildlife Migration and Protect Biodiversity

www.defenders.org

Our Public Lands Podcast

Logging in National Parks Has Arrived: We Didn’t Get Here Overnight

Our land management agencies are now being caught in the act, greenlighting logging projects in our national parks, national monuments, and wilderness areas…

Read more

a year ago · 559 likes · 65 comments · Our Public Lands Podcast, Jennifer Mamola, and John Muir Project

02:59 Meet Kelly and Christian

03:39 Defenders Parks Program

06:45 Refuges Rulemaking and Predators

10:38 Why Corridors Matter

14:48 Defining Connectivity and Roads

17:53 Climate and Private Lands

21:14 State Models and Crossings Funding

28:04 Science and Political Hurdles

31:16 Mapping Agencies and Sideboards

36:36 Economics ESA and Future Vision

43:49 Public Lands Reflections

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I this episode, I interview Dave Stalling, writer and wildlife advocate based in Missoula, Montana. Dave recounts his time serving in Marine Corps Force Recon, struggling for years with self-acceptance, and finding his footing by spending long periods alone in remote Montana wildlands, influenced by Doug Peacock’s Grizzly Years and writers like Edward Abbey and Jack Turner. Dave explains his deep connection to grizzlies as teachers of humility, and critiques how modern hunting culture, commercialization, and hunter-dominated agencies use “science” to justify politically driven predator killing and maximizing harvest of game animals. Dave argues wildlife management should include all citizens, discusses ballot initiatives, and shares how hiking with his son Cory, who has a muscular disease, taught him to slow down, notice small details, and practice “forest bathing.”

https://substack.com/@davidstalling

Doug Peacock’s Grizzly Years

Jack Turner’s The Abstract Wild

01:47 Meet David Stalling

03:27 Gray Hair Hypocrisy

05:21 Force Recon Self Acceptance

08:32 Father Roots in Wild

12:53 Grizzlies Teach Humility

16:43 Hunting Culture Critique

17:32 Anti Hunter Who Hunts

25:20 Science Versus Politics

27:03 Elk Bears Misused Science

34:59 Commercialized Hunting Takeover

37:51 Conservation Groups Letdown

38:51 Reforming Wildlife Management

40:33 Ballot Initiatives vs Science

45:31 Calling Out Hunter Culture

47:54 How Dave Learned to Write

53:05 Lessons From Cory

58:18 Rethinking Wild Places

01:03:56 Forest Bathing and Healing

01:07:17 Public Lands Are Everything

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In this episode, I interview Alex Kelloff, a first-time candidate running in Colorado’s 3rd Congressional District. Alex launched his campaign after Donald Trump’s 2024 reelection, citing concerns about January 6, public-lands selloffs and leasing for oil and gas, federal land-agency staffing cuts, and opposition to Republican Rep. Jeff Hurd and Project 2025-style policies. We discuss top voter concerns including cost of living, rural hospital instability, Medicaid cuts, and the need for universal affordable healthcare with an independently managed public system. Drawing on a 30+ year telecom career, Alex critiques AI data-center “land grab” spending, opposes data centers in his district due to land, water, and utility constraints, and discusses renewable transmission, mining tradeoffs, and public-lands governance.

https://alexkelloff.com/

00:57 Episode Preview Alex Kelloff

02:54 Campaign Trail and Voter Struggles

05:15 Public Lands as Economic Lifeline

06:00 Inside Colorado Third District

08:13 Why He’s Running Now

10:52 Trump Era Impacts on Public Lands

12:22 Top Issues Healthcare and Hospitals

14:14 Universal Healthcare Vision

17:33 Telecom Career and Infrastructure

20:44 AI Data Centers and Public Lands

22:31 AI Land Grab

28:46 Opposing Data Centers in District

30:05 Siting Data Centers Smartly

30:43 Geothermal Drilling Risks

31:43 Mining Materials Tradeoffs

35:46 Rare Earths and War Strategy

39:05 Renewables on Public Lands

41:23 Transmission and Grid Bottlenecks

44:13 RMPs and Project 2025

49:41 Grazing Permit Retirement

51:47 Public Private Models

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In this episode, I interview Paul Lynn, a Walla Walla, Washington-based mycology educator, business owner and public-lands advocate, about fungal ecology, mycelium networks, and how logging disrupts soils’ “sponge” function that stores and releases water. Paul links fungi to forest hydrology, climate processes, and a precautionary approach given how little is known about fungal communities. Our conversation focuses on the 38,000-acre Tiger Mill Project, a quote, unquote, “wildfire-risk-reduction timber sale” in and around Walla Walla’s heavily protected municipal watershed within a roadless area adjacent to the Wenaha-Tucannon Wilderness. Paul argues the project is a subsidized extraction effort using black-box models and flawed assumptions, risking worsening forest drying, fire behavior, sedimentation, and flood impacts in a rain-on-snow zone, and is positioned as a pilot for watershed logging elsewhere like in Bend and Portland Oregon, and Seattle, Washington.

Walla Walla wants to know: Does forest ‘thinning’ work?

Confluence Series

Walla Walla Watersheds

Fungaia

Paul’s entertaining City Council videos:

https://youtube.com/shorts/XX0jIhtVjFg

https://youtube.com/shorts/qOhp9yqJidU

https://youtube.com/shorts/hLPbptKCzYE

https://youtube.com/shorts/fFXVC_Hldl8

02:18 Meet Paul Lynn

03:41 Mycology to Ecology

06:36 Mycelium and Precaution

08:43 Logging Impacts Soil Sponge

10:47 Foraging and Drought

12:33 Disturbance Morels and Spores

15:01 Responsible Mushroom Picking

18:04 Roots and Walla Walla

20:55 Blue Mountains Microclimates

24:48 Into Forest Activism

29:15 Tiger Mill Pilot Project

32:55 Wildfire Risk Narrative

34:48 Water Stakes Floods and Fire

36:59 Why Logging Worsens Hydrology

40:21 Fire History and Recovery

41:39 Endless Management Loop

42:59 Trout After Wildfire

44:41 Local Politics And Players

48:36 Fire Risk Logging Debate

51:05 Grassroots Education Strategy

54:58 Money Grants And Liability

59:13 Tiger Mill Project Details

01:02:36 Modeling And NEPA Loopholes

01:08:12 Flood Risk And Sediment

01:12:07 Water Scarcity Big Picture

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In this episode, I interview Sam Forstag, a former Missoula-based Forest Service smokejumper and union local vice president now running for Congress in Montana’s 1st District, motivated by DOGE-related cuts that fired many of his co-workers and by frustration with Rep. Ryan Zinke’s lack of response. Forstag shares his upbringing, education at the University of Montana, and eight years in firefighting, arguing that gutting agencies leads to privatization, higher costs, and weaker public-land stewardship. Our conversation covers money in politics, Citizens United, tax-code inequities, and healthcare. We debate and discuss public lands issues around wildfire strategy, WUI priorities, fuels work, NEPA timelines and staffing, logging versus local milling capacity, roadless-rule repeal, and the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act.

“Fuel Reduction” Logging Exacerbates Wildfire Effects and Puts Communities at Greater Risk

Rising wildfire risk to houses in the United States, especially in grasslands and shrublands

Home hardening and defensible space can halve wildfire damage, study finds

A More Effective Approach for Preventing Wildland-Urban Fire Disasters Jack Cohen, PhD; Research Physical Scientist; US Forest Service, retired

Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act

Our Public Lands Podcast

#75 - Our Next Public Lands Champion in Congress? w/ Ryan Busse

Do you value this program? Please help support me by “upgrading” your subscription. Thank you…

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4 months ago · 41 likes · 3 comments · Our Public Lands Podcast and Ryan Busse

03:55 DOGE Cuts Spark Campaign

06:57 Unionizing The Forest Service

09:49 Organizing Spreads To NPS

13:56 Money In Politics

17:19 Healthcare Medicare Choice

22:22 Why Run For Congress

26:31 Life As A Smokejumper

28:31 Letting Fire Burn

31:42 WUI Home Hardening Debate

33:09 Fuels Work And Logging Nuance

36:26 Fuels Treatments

38:03 Home Hardening

41:33 WUI Definition

44:48 NEPA Timelines and Courts

53:18 Local Timber Milling

01:01:00 Restoration Jobs With NREPA

01:04:24 Roadless Rule Under Threat

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In this episode, I interview Alison Fox, executive director of American Prairie, about the organization’s 25-year effort to build a 3.2-million-acre grassland reserve anchored by the 1.1-million-acre Charles M. Russell National Wildlife Refuge. Ali describes on-the-ground restoration including a bison herd grown from 16 animals to nearly 1,000, fence modification/removal, stream work, junk removal, and prairie dog restoration, plus wildlife successes like swift fox reintroduction and grizzly sightings. Our conversation centers on BLM’s proposed reversal of a 2022 decision allowing bison grazing on seven allotments they lease in Phillips County, introducing a new “production” standard under the Taylor Grazing Act that could affect other bison permittees and tribal herds; American Prairie has protested and is preparing further challenges while contingency-planning for herd relocation. Ali also discuss public access and hunting programs, local reactions and misconceptions, donor criticism, tribal partnerships, and a closing invitation to visit the reserve and the importance of public lands.

www.americanprairie.org

03:33 Meet Alison Fox

04:27 Alison’s Background and Montana

05:51 American Prairie Mission

06:45 Origins and Why Grasslands Matter

08:03 Acreage Breakdown and BLM Leases

09:25 On the Ground Restoration Work

11:39 Wildlife Comebacks Swift Fox

13:23 Rewilding and Grizzly Return

15:57 Land Acquisition and Ranching Leases

17:48 Anchor Ranch and Public Access

20:20 BLM Move to Rescind Bison Grazing

24:33 Taylor Grazing Act Production Standard

27:01 Precedent Risks and Next Steps

28:42 Contingency Plans

30:39 Cattle Only Permit Shift

31:05 State Land Legal Fight

31:47 Tribal Partnerships

35:20 Stocking Rate Decisions

36:08 Bison Versus Cattle

38:10 Donors And Transparency

41:55 Local Reception And Critics

44:01 Hunting Access Programs

46:05 Dispelling Bison Myths

49:13 Negative Bison Easements

50:15 Working With BLM

50:50 Visit American Prairie

51:54 Why Public Lands Matter

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In this episode, I am joined by Wanda Culp and Joshua Wright to discuss their new film, Land Less, and the “Landless Bill” (S.2554 / H.R.41), that would transfer 115,000 acres of Southeast Alaska public lands on the Tongass National Forest—about 60,000 currently protected by the Roadless Rule—to new Native corporations created under ANCSA. They describe ANCSA’s corporate model and contend past Tongass transfers, including the 2014 Sealaska Bill and the Alaska Mental Health Trust exchange, have repeatedly led to large-scale old-growth clearcut logging. They criticize major environmental groups like The Nature Conservancy and The Wilderness Society for supporting the bill, warning it functions as a workaround to NEPA and federal oversight, and discuss Sealaska’s cease-and-desist letter over a filmed boardroom scene.

www.LandLessFilm.com

Take Action!

00:56 Episode Preview Landless Bill

02:12 Alaska Land Transfers Context

04:04 Meet Wanda and Joshua

04:24 Why Make Landless?

06:47 Wanda’s Story

09:22 Past Tongass Transfer Deals

11:41 Why Landless Enables Logging

14:41 Big Greens Backlash

18:43 Sealaska Cease and Desist

28:32 Tribal Governance and Youth

34:07 No Public Process After Transfer

38:44 Climate Crisis and Extraction

41:30 How to Take Action

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In this episode, I speak with long-time wilderness advocate Gary Macfarlane. Gary discusses moving from Idaho to France, still active with Wilderness Watch and Friends of the Clearwater, he explains his long connection to the Northern Rockies and why the Clearwater Basin is so special to him, with diverse habitats and notable wildlife history including wolves, grizzly sightings, and the decline of woodland caribou tied to habitat change and human access. Our conversation covers threats to roadless areas, weaknesses and loopholes in the Roadless Rule, and the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act. We discuss mechanized recreation, core Wilderness Act protections, and concerns about Forest Service ties to industry, outsourcing, and reorganization harming wilderness stewardship, plus critiques of fire-logging justifications.

Support NREPA

02:03 Idaho to France Life

03:17 Wild Places in France

05:29 Why the Clearwater Matters

07:29 Inland Rainforest Ecology

09:15 Wolves Grizzlies Caribou

14:29 Roadless Rule Loopholes

16:41 Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act

19:26 Politics Jobs and Subsidies

24:10 Recreation Versus Wilderness

29:54 What Wilderness Protects

31:46 Logging Bans Explained

32:38 Grazing and Guiding Loopholes

34:10 Chainsaws and Trail Ethics

36:33 Forest Service Reorg Fallout

38:58 Losing Wilderness Professionals

45:23 Devolution to State Control

47:29 Research Stations and Fire Science

50:32 Privatization and Canada Warning

53:25 Reform Ideas for New Agencies

58:26 Prescribed Fire and Home Hardening

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In this episode, I speak with Ryan Busse, Democratic congressional candidate running in MT-01. He is currently projected to win the upcoming primary election in early June. On public lands issues in Congress, Ryan argues calls and letters aren’t enough without electoral change, citing the example of the recent vote on the Boundary Waters, and lays out his case as to why he’ll be a strong fighter for public lands in Washington for all Americans. We discuss “collaborative conservation” and Montana public-lands bills that protect limited wilderness acres at the expense of vast swaths of roadless forests. We discuss Montana’s logging past, new economies, the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act, restoration jobs, and a wildfire approach focused on home hardening and defensible space rather than backcountry logging.

https://busseformontana.com

00:34 Guest Intro

03:36 Campaign Life on the Road

05:17 Boundary Waters Disaster

08:10 Public Lands Laws

09:40 Zinke and Daines Exit

11:57 Hunting Season Sacrifices

12:56 Public Lands Campaign Plan

15:28 Why Elect True Advocates?

17:24 Busse’s Conservation Resume

19:13 Democratic Opponents

21:20 Public Lands for All Americans

23:23 Polls and Montana’s Stakes

25:17 Public Lands on the Ballot

25:59 Collaborative Conservation

27:43 Why Collaboration Fails

29:31 Montana’s Collaborative Bills

32:45 Roadless Habitat

35:43 NREPA and Restoration Jobs

37:30 Wild Places Drive the Economy

41:30 Lumber Mill Automation and Jobs

43:42 Wildfire Science and Home Hardening

48:09 Election Stakes

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U.S. Senate passed H.J. Res. 140 (50–49) to overturn a 20-year mineral withdrawal protecting 225,504 acres in the Boundary Waters’ Rainy River headwaters, sending the resolution to President Trump. Ingrid explains the Quetico-Superior ecosystem’s vulnerability to sulfide copper mining, the history of canceled Twin Metals leases and the 2023 public land order, and argues the Congressional Review Act use is unprecedented and threatens broader public land orders. She outlines next steps including likely issuance of federal mineral leases, expedited federal and state permitting and environmental review, possible litigation, and pursuing permanent protections through federal and Minnesota legislation, while urging supporters to thank supportive senators, hold others accountable, volunteer, donate, and stay engaged.

Save the Boundary Waters Action Fund

00:56 Senate Vote Fallout

02:08 Meet Ingrid Lyons

02:49 Why the Boundary Waters Matter

05:26 Mining Threat Explained

06:51 How Protections Were Won

09:48 Withdrawal Area Breakdown

11:42 Legislative Attacks Timeline

13:34 How the CRA Was Used

17:02 Senate Vote and Precedent

18:51 Coalition Strength and Vote Count

23:23 What Happens Next

28:56 How You Can Help

33:23 Q and A Begins

In this episode, I interview Diane Boyd, wolf biologist and author. Diane describes learning wolf trapping and collaring during her early years in Minnesota, then moving to Montana in 1979 during early natural wolf recolonization before the 1995–96 Yellowstone/Idaho introductions. She explains why biologists trap wolves, what radio-collars reveal about pack behavior, reproduction, territories, diet, and genetics, and how wolf management has become politicized. Our discussion critiques state population modeling, increasingly liberal wolf-killing rules, and persistent misinformation blaming wolves for game declines despite elk numbers being high and livestock losses from wolves being small. We also discuss public-lands grazing impacts, nonlethal coexistence tools, fears of escalation to poisoning, and the need for better public communication of science, advocating for public lands, and her new book — A Woman Among Wolves.

Diane’s book - A Woman Among Wolves

00:56 Episode Preview

02:51 Meet Diane Boyd

03:24 Hunting Talk

05:00 Wolf Origins

06:01 Trapping And Collars

07:34 Montana Recolonization

08:56 Research Questions

10:06 Models And Trends

11:42 Wolf Hunting Debate

15:27 Elk Deer Myths

17:22 Grazing And Habitat

19:31 Coexistence Tools

23:31 People Politics Data

25:44 Why Wolves Get Blamed

26:49 Control Culture and Old Predator Wars

28:53 Common Myths

30:52 Hunting Pressure and Poison Fears

34:41 Changing Minds With Better Science

36:08 Agency Misinformation and Suppressed Research

40:10 Grizzlies Next?

42:36 Why Wolves Adapt Everywhere

45:04 Hope, Tolerance, and Public Lands

By “upgrading” your subscription, can help support my work. Thanks to all my listeners and supporters!

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In this episode, I interview Bob Krumenaker, retired Big Bend National Park superintendent, about the recently proposed Big Bend border wall and its implications. Bob describes Big Bend’s desert, Chisos Mountains, and the Rio Grande riparian corridor, emphasizing biodiversity, cross-border wildlife movement, and the park’s international protected-area status. He argues Big Bend has the lowest illegal crossing activity on the southern border—about 200 apprehensions annually within the park—and says a 30-foot bollard wall would require new roads, towers, lighting, and secondary barriers, harming wilderness character, dark skies, river access, and wildlife. The discussion covers existing surveillance infrastructure, an MOU guiding Border Patrol conduct, prior wall impacts in Organ Pipe and Coronado, and a nonpartisan coalition opposing the wall while supporting less intrusive, cooperative technology. Bob also outlines advocacy steps and links the fight to long-stalled wilderness designation efforts.

Thousands in Texas protest against border wall through national park: ‘big love for Big Bend’

Sign the Change Dot Org Petition

Five Call - Stop Construction of a Border Wall in the Big Bend Region

Capitol Switchboard Number - (202) 224-3121

Keep Big Bend Wild

No Big Bend Boarder Wall

00:56 Episode Preview

02:12 Support the Podcast

03:03 Meet Bob Krumenaker

03:26 Career Path to Superintendent

04:56 Advocacy Inside NPS

06:48 Park Service Mission and Management

11:43 Pivot to Big Bend Tenure

13:57 Big Bend Ecosystems Overview

16:30 Sky Islands and Rare Species

17:41 Wildlife Comebacks and Connectivity

19:49 Crossings Data and Border Patrol Role

21:58 Wall Impacts in Other Parks

26:00 MOU and Working with Border Patrol

27:53 Wall Proposal Timeline and Map Changes

33:00 What a Wall Would Build

35:20 River Access At Risk

36:21 What Smart Wall Means

38:57 Surveillance Tradeoffs

42:15 How Crossings Really Work

45:46 Coalition Against The Wall

54:01 Wilderness History And Future

01:00:18 How You Can Help

01:03:05 Why Public Lands Matter

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In this episode, I interview Harold Wood, writer and historian, who specializes in the life and work of John Muir, one of the nation’s most influential and now, controversial, wilderness advocates. Harold discusses his lifelong interest in Muir and explains why his blend of scientific observation and poetic writing remains influential today. He outlines Muir’s role in the wilderness movement and the Sierra Club’s early conservation campaigns. The conversation addresses presentism and claims about Muir’s views of Native Americans. Harold disputes allegations linking Muir to Indigenous removals, racism and eugenics. Harold argues that we have much to learn from the life and advocacy of Muir and that we should come together as conservationists to address the challenges of the present day.

John Muir and Native Americans

John Muir: Racist or Admirer of Native Americans?

Criticizing Muir and misunderstanding the foundation of American nature conservation

Who was John Muir, Really?

Battle for the Wilderness by Michael Frome

00:56 Episode Overview

02:05 Harold Wood Background

03:03 Why Muir Matters

03:49 Who Was John Muir

04:55 Roosevelt Yosemite Trip

06:38 Fame and Hetch Hetchy

11:18 Sierra Club Origins

13:15 Outings and Modern Era

16:17 Presentism Explained

20:02 Early Native Views

23:13 Views Evolve Through Travel

26:11 Ecocentric Worldview

28:35 Indigenous Land Management

31:42 Yosemite Removal Claims

33:53 Parks and Displacement

36:18 Muir Backlash

41:26 Eugenics Claims Rebuttal

42:19 Sequoia League Support

46:46 Unity Through Grassroots

49:42 Wilderness Big Lie

56:14 Agency Politics and Wilderness

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In this episode, I welcome back Kevin Proescholdt of Wilderness Watch to discuss wilderness policy debates, focusing on large prescribed-burning proposals like the Forest Service plan to burn all 289,000 acres of Illinois’s Shawnee National Forest, including about 40,000 acres of designated wilderness, and a Boundary Waters project proposal to burn roughly 87,000 of Wilderness. Kevin and I dispute claims that Indigenous people broadly burned entire regions and landscapes, citing newer research suggesting more localized burning around village sites and for food cultivation. We argue agencies use false Indigenous fire narratives to justify forest thinning and landscape manipulation. We also critique Claire Boerigter’s recent article: “How protecting wilderness could mean purposefully tending it, not just leaving it alone,” which advocates active management of wilderness.

Wilderness, Indigenous land zones and regionality in North American forests

For Wilderness to remain wild, it must remain unmanipulated

02:03 Kevin Proescholdt background

04:01 Current wilderness hotspots

06:59 Holding the wilderness line

12:20 Why wilderness matters

15:31 Fire narratives and logging cover

18:58 Shawnee National Forest burn proposal

21:36 Indigenous burning

24:22 Boundary Waters burn plan

25:28 Flawed fire history methods

26:46 Habitat loss and species decline

27:16 Wilderness Act Misread

30:53 Wilderness Pristine Straw Man Arguments

35:47 Let Lightning Fires Burn

38:14 Why High Intensity Matters

40:21 Wildness and Mental Health

41:27 Fire Regeneration Perspective

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In this episode, I interview John Gaedeke, who was raised around a remote wilderness lodge near Inuk Lake in the Brooks Range, Alaska, and now helps lead Defend the Brooks Range. Our conversation centers on threats from proposed infrastructure and expanded mineral development, including the Ambler Road and changes to protections along the Dalton Highway corridor, which John says could enable heavy ore trucking, intensify industrialization, and increase risks to rivers, salmon, and caribou while exporting raw copper overseas with limited benefits to Alaskans.

01:39 Land Transfers and Oak Flat

03:08 Meet John

03:22 Life in the Brooks Range

04:16 Winter Travel and Lodge Logistics

06:29 Building a Remote Wilderness Lodge

08:28 From Hunting to Ecotourism

10:15 Why Protections Matter

11:40 Extraction Economics and Dividends

14:31 Defend the Brooks Range Origins

15:33 Brooks Range Extremes and Fragility

17:48 Wildlife Encounters Up North

20:21 Fishing Inuk Lake

22:37 Recreation Changes and Elite Wilderness

24:49 Brooks Range Humility

25:19 Dalton Corridor Rules

27:39 Mining Meets Pipelines

28:48 Ore Economics Explained

30:42 Roads Change Wilderness

32:57 Ambler Road Risks

34:59 Litigation And Unknowns

38:01 Biggest Red Flags

41:51 How To Push Back

46:32 Public Lands Giveaway

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In this episode, I interview Gerry James, deputy director of the Sierra Club’s Outdoors for All Campaign. Gerry describes his upbringing as a military brat that fostered a love of the outdoors and environmental protection, and discusses challenges he has faced as a Black man recreating outdoors. He outlines efforts to close the nature equity gap through youth programs, transit access to nature, and partnerships that train students as Sierra Club outings leaders, connecting outings to advocacy. Much of the conversation focuses on the Trump administration’s “Restoring Truth and Sanity” executive order and resulting attempts to remove or sanitize historical and climate-related interpretation on public lands, such as Philadelphia’s President’s House slavery exhibit and its restoration after a city lawsuit. Gerry details Sierra Club organizing, public records requests, coalition-building with historians, and planned actions to protect inclusive public history.

Outdoors for All Campaign

Save Our Signs Campaign

LANDSCAPES OF EXCLUSION: State Parks and Jim Crow in the American South

02:31 Military Brat Roots

04:10 Learning Black History

05:13 Racism Outdoors

07:51 Outdoor Equity Renaissance

09:06 HBCUs Outside Partnership

11:19 Outings To Advocacy

14:38 Skiing And Youth Trips

16:51 Outdoors For All Campaign

18:51 Fighting History Whitewashing

21:50 Organizing And Records Requests

24:31 Philly Rally And Win

31:02 Resistance Rangers Network

32:04 Whitewashing Civil Rights

33:52 Tribal History Under Fire

34:46 Lawsuit And Truth Debate

36:59 Interpreting History

39:09 Climate Science Attacks

41:25 Sustainability And Comments

43:27 Coalitions And Day Of Action

47:20 Save Our Signs And Juneteenth

52:44 Black State Parks Legacy

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Please join us March 5th (tomorrow) @ 5:30pm Pacific for a live discussion and Q+A session for the film. Substack Live link below.

Film Discussion + Q&A

Where Fire Heals and Mismanagement Hurts: Notes from Sequoia Country

By John Muir Project, Our Public Lands Podcast, Western Watersheds Project, and Wilderness Watch

John Muir Project, Our Public Lands Podcast, Western Watersheds Project, and Wilderness Watch

Jul 01, 2025

The John Muir Project just returned from our annual retreat, a time to reconnect with each other—and with the landscapes we are fighting to protect. This year, our time in Sequoia country aligned with the summer solstice, the longest day of the year when light stretches across the landscape and the rhythms of the natural world feel most alive.

It is also a moment to reflect on the summers to come. As the climate warms and extremes deepen, fire will continue to shape these forests, and so too will our choices about how, and whether, to intervene.

Joined by colleagues from Western Watersheds Project, Wilderness Watch, and others, we visited three of the most ecologically important giant sequoia groves in the southern Sierra Nevada: Redwood Mountain Grove, Packsaddle Grove, and Freeman Creek Grove.

Redwood Mountain Grove, located within a national park and designated wilderness, burned during the 2021 KNP Complex Fire. It stands as a powerful example of natural recovery. The most robust sequoia regeneration we observed occurred in the higher-intensity burn areas, where sunlight and nutrient-rich soil created ideal conditions for young trees. This is the type of fire sequoias evolved with, and this is where they flourish.

Unfortunately, not all interventions support this recovery. In areas where the Park Service had planted seedlings, many were already dying. Random, struggling saplings stood in stark contrast to the vibrant, naturally regenerating portions of the grove where tens of thousands of seedlings and saplings per acre carpeted the ground. It turns out sequoias are much better at growing themselves when we do not micromanage the process. Imagine that?!

Packsaddle Grove, within the Giant Sequoia National Monument, burned in the 2020 Castle Fire. Here, the Forest Service has begun logging in the middle of the grove. Trees, including living ones, are being cut and hauled out. Heavy equipment has scraped away regenerating sequoia seedlings and other plants, damaged soils, and left behind scars that reveal a process labeled as “restoration” on paper but something entirely different in practice.

Massive logging operation and compacted soil from “restoration” equipment in Packsaddle Grove, within Giant Sequoia National Monument | Photo by JMP staff, June 20, 2025

Grazing was a common thread in all three groves. We found signs of cattle everywhere we visited—some authorized, some trespass, a pungent reminder that livestock are hampering post-fire forest recovery and regeneration. The freshest evidence was at Freeman Creek Grove, where we observed new cow pies and soil turned to dust. These fragile ecosystems, still in early stages of natural renewal after fire, are now hosting trampling hooves and digestive aftermath in the name of “multiple use.” Apparently, “restoration” now includes compacted soil, crushed seedlings, and a fresh layer of manure.

We have seen this language before, terms such as “thinning,” “grazing to mitigate fire risk,” and “forest health.” They sound helpful, but these terms are attached to projects that remove trees, disrupt soil, destroy natural regeneration, and replace living systems with logging operations. Destructive practices by our land management agencies are now being visited upon our cherished sequoia groves, national parks, and wilderness areas.

Is nothing sacred?

First, they claim the forest is too dense and must be thinned to reduce wildfire risk. Then fire comes, and despite everything, the forest begins to heal, as seedlings push through ash, wildlife returns, and regeneration takes hold. Yet recovery is rarely allowed to stand on its own. Next, they insist the forest must be managed again to “restore” it. Whether before or after fire, management results in scraped soil, crushed seedlings, and ecological processes interrupted, all while being marketed as forest health.

We are told these groves need thinning to reduce the risk of future fires. But the science tells a different story. Logging unnaturally increases fire severity, grazing diminishes regrowth, and artificial planting often fails to match the natural pace and patterns of post-fire renewal. Still, these activities continue to be marketed as solutions to problems that they actively worsen.

Fire is not the threat. It is quite the opposite.

Fire is the source of new life and regeneration. It is not something to be feared. It is something to celebrate.

The real damage comes before and afterward, disguised as care, in the form of logging operations, grazing leases, and well-funded planting schemes that undercut natural processes.

And this is not happening in one or two groves alone. Public lands of all stripes are vulnerable. National forests, national parks, and even national monuments and Wilderness areas are increasingly managed under shifting policies that put ecological integrity second to industry access, agency optics, or political pressure. Labels do not offer real protection; they only make it easier to assume that protection exists.

What we need are enforceable, science-based protections that recognize fire as essential and prevent agencies from using “restoration” as a cover for extractive and destructive management. The forests are recovering on their own. They do not need more management—they need to be respected. If we cannot give the sequoia forests space to live, adapt, and survive on their own, then surely we have lost ourselves. The question should be; what can we learn from these forests, not what can we do to ‘help’ them.

Over the next few weeks, we will share more from our time in Sequoia country, including field photos, deeper policy insights, and a closer look at the growing push to expand logging across all categories of public lands—including national forests, monuments, and parks.

But for now, the lesson is simple.

The forests showing the strongest recovery were those shaped by fire, not by management. The most damaged were the ones where we intervened to “fix” what was never broken.

Let us stop undermining natural recovery. Let us stop pretending that logging and grazing amount to stewardship. Let us choose real protection, rooted in humility and guided by science.